Modern ReefKeeping

Michael

very interesting eric, especially about ph at levels to 8.6

Eric Borneman

Well, that is an artifact of closed systems and the propensity of tanks to drop so much in pH (especially at night)

oldsaint

What are the effects of maintaining a high Ca level? I was told years ago, mainly stoney corals If you run a high Ca level this will put stress on the coral by robbing energy from their limited energy budget by trying to shed the additional Ca.

Eric Borneman
It’s role in keeping carbonate and not CO2 in the water and preventing limitations to calcification oldsaint, not really

Adam J
How much (if any) does magnesium effect calcification?

Eric Borneman
If you keep artificially high Ca, you limit the amount of cabonates without precipitating…

and since carbonates are the limiting factor, not calcium, the result is that you have too much of the one that matters less, and less of the one than matters more

Adam great question – and complex

oldsaint
I see

Eric Borneman
Magnesium is now known to be involved in the nucleation of the deposition of carbonate and somehow it also allows coral to make the diagnistic septal/corallite features  Otherwise corals would just form basicaly round rocks of carbonate and it is important in maintaining levels of high Mg calcite (corallines)

Eric Borneman
These are the first to go when the pH drops and a major worry with ocean acidification

they are the most soluble So magnesium plays a direct role to coral skeletal formation and an indirect important role as high Mg calcite

Eric Borneman
and is greatly affected by CO2 in the air, in the water primarily by reducing pH. But, it is also present at very high levels, so to some degree it is like calcium

Michael
i find ph is the hardest to maintain, ive read stability even as low as 7.8-7.9 is fine, however really we need to attempt to keep it at 8.2 upwards for optimum coral growth then

Eric Borneman
You can let it drop quite a bit and still have plenty. done now yes. This has been shown in labs, mesocosms and reefs Now, there is a workaround that calcium reactors employ You can maintain lower pH IF you have abnormally elevated alkalinity

Eric Borneman
Which is what calcium reactors can do if set right

Michael
i do use kalk to attemp to do this, and to counter against my calcium reactor, sometimes i wonder if a reactor is a wise tool due to the co2

Eric Borneman
But, the extra Co2 in the water also helps feed algae, reduces other gases, and basically makes it a shunted, unnatural, not ideal way to achieve the same calcification rate

Yes, me too. The dissolution of carbonate to replenish Ca and alk intrinsically makes sense’

Michael
i think so too

Eric Borneman
But I removed calcium reactors from my tanks because of the low pH – it works, but not what the reefs do and I am not sure of the effects to the whole community

Michael
i wonder if a reactor is wise long term

Eric Borneman
It is essentially us causing greenhouse gases intentionally, and then oomphing it past the downfall bu increasing alkalinity – ideally, you have high pH and alkalinity

This is geologically how things are when reefs have fluorished

Adam J
What do you suggest aquarist use to maintain Ca levels?

Eric Borneman
Michael, there is a paper that addresses this and has great graphs…done in an aquarium but I cannot post the figures

Michael
that sounds interesting eric

Eric Borneman
email me to eborneman@uh.edu and I can send it to you. I definitely make one think

Michael
i wonder if we overcomplecate things at times

ok thanks

Eric Borneman
Adam, I have seen too many tanks – abysmmal failures and brilliant successes with all manner of methods to do this to say what works and what doesn’t.  But My view is that if a tank is generally not calcifying heavily (i.e softies, fish) and kalkwasser is able to maintain Calcium then it is an easy and effective method but not enough for tanks with lots of fast growing corals clams etc

Michael
i suppose a quality salt for a softie tank with regular water changes is fine as well

Eric Borneman
For that, I suggest the 2-3part solutions and I alter the amount of bicarbonate to carbonate depending on where the pH is after adding

If the pH of the water after addition is low, I make my mix using more sodium carbonate, less bicarbonate and vice-versa, to get a pH of 8.2-8.4

Eric Borneman
Well automation is a nice thing – I wonder about the actual mechanics of how we approach the calcium reactor – and whether we should be using CO2 as the acid since it is such an integral part of the seawater buffer system

Michael
i suppose 2 reactors together would work better, one for calcium maintaining and the other to help with the lowering of the ph

Eric Borneman
To me, a slow drip of HCl into the media would react instantly and not effects the pH as much – it’s so concentrated the pH would be neutralizes (H=) by the carbonate dissolving, whereas we have to make CO2 sta in long contact

Michael
which occurs due to the c02

Eric Borneman
the downside might be a long term buildup of the VERY abundant cl- ions, but a water change, if a problem, woudl take care of that

Michael yes that is one way to accomplish it – and people do get these results….

Michael
i have considered it, but again its just more equipment haha#

Eric Borneman
the thing is if you have highly saturated aragonite in the water and the pH is at tank level you might wind up precipiating in the second reactor and making it solid limestone

Michael
really?

Eric Borneman
Exactly. The more equipment, the more money and the more that can (and usually does) go wrong

Michael
i think my reef faired better without the reactor eric tbh, and im am looking at just kalk now if i need it

Eric Borneman
Sure…this happens when you snow the tank – and are called whitings in highly supersaturaed ocean water and the basis of electrolytic mineral accreation and abiotic precipitation

I did too Michael. I wanted to love my reactors, but ultimately didn’t. But a lot of people use them with great success.

Michael
yeah ive seen many reefers suggest they love their reactor

Adam J
I currently use a 2 part and had thought about getting a reactor. I may stick with what I do. It works well so I guess ther is no point in changing.

Michael
i suppose fresh air for ph stability is an option as well, and the kalk for calcium.alk maintaining

Eric Borneman
I went from 2 part to calcium reactors and back to 2-part. Simpler, cheaper and for me worked better. Kept all params for high calcification right where i wanted. The sacrifice, of course, is having to add it if you are away

Michael yes. But with kalkwasser, fresh air may cause crusts of carbonate to form.

Michael
theres so much to consider i suppose

ive got a headache now haha just kidding

Eric Borneman
Fresh air in homes has really surprised me for many hobbyists. Recently had people close up new homes for the winter and their pH plummetted…so much I had a hard time believing it was possible but it was

Michael
i suppose heating systems are also a reason

Chris
So if I have an old home with lots of air leaks…….its a good thing?…lol

Michael
for lower ph

Adam J
Don’t gas heaters and stoves have some effect on Ph ?

Eric Borneman
LOL – yes, it is very complex. Lots of choices and lots of decisions as to what is ideal and it varies according to the tank the tank owner and the the ultimate needs of both

Chris – likely it is….unless it allows in toxins like paint spray, industrial pollution mosquito sprayers, etc.

Adam, I have wondered that, too, and I would think so. We have a lot of gas appliances/heaters and I would think in a new home it may be a problem. I have a lot of my system water outside, so I can’t really say, but they make good cheap monitors for CO, CO2 etc at horticulture supply and home testing vendors

Bonnie
there are some very good freash air unit that tie into your heatin and a/c units besause of the spray foam in houses now

Eric Borneman
I’d be interested to see numbers

yes, indeed.

Bonnie
I do a/c for a livin

Eric Borneman
We use a number of HEPA and other filters for molds, mildews pollens, dust, toxicants (Houston air), pets, etc. a good filter at the intake of the main house unit helps a lot too. Its amazing the crud that falls in our tanks and is probably a lot in terms of concentration compared to the big ocean

Bonnie
IQ air filter are very good

Eric Borneman
Bonnie, not familiar…can you explain more

Chris
so…your saying the quality of your furnace filter will make a difference in you tank?

Michael
whats your favorite type of reef eric?

Bonnie
Hi, I’m Terry ORCA president. At work we install IQ air filter systems. w have a

Eric Borneman
Chris – potentially yes. I even have UV-C in my ducts for molds

Michael what do you mean? Tank or wild?

Michael
tank

Bonnie
We have micron devices to determine how many microns are in your house. Before we install the filter, we’re amazed at how many microns are in the avg house.

Michael
i ask because i wonder about your thoughts on high flow in our tanks

Eric Borneman
I can’t say I have one but I like tanks where the owner is in it for the long term and there are big old mature colonies and a lot of divesity on the rocks. I also love Chuck Raabe’s tank…brilliant niche tank…but he lives in the Philippines so has access to diversity we dont. Tank is loaded with sponges, tunicates, etc. Amazing

Michael
i see some sps reefers now turn over more than 100x the water volume in flow these days

Eric Borneman
Bonnie, agreed.

Terry

Michael – here is the thing on flow. I very mcuh agree with Marc levenson’s view on turnover

I think turnover should be low and in tank ciruclation high

Michael
turnover through the sump?

Adam J
What do you consider low?

Eric Borneman
save money doesn’t require big pumps and no sense in spinning water in and out of a tank. The quality of the water flow in the display(s) is the critical part

Michael, yes.

Michael
i see

Eric Borneman
and that water flow depends on the species being kept

but in almost all cases, – and to our detriment as the technology is not ther eyet – all tanks (high or low water flow) should be mass flux and rarely high velocity – ie. moving the whole water column

things liek pulsed Vortechs and WaveBoxes try but don’t quite do it

Low – I don’t know – a lagoon can get turned over once every 12 hours – some areas once per hours with higher tidal and current flux. I think that’s plenty. But, this doesn’t indicate the relative water flow/flux/velocity to the habitat itself which could vary from very slow to rippingly fast

Chris
so your saying lots of little pumps are preferable to one large one?

Eric Borneman
Think of a river where it gets wide and then narrow. Same water flux, same turnover, very different flow types

Michael
i often see 3-5x mentioned on site forums

Eric Borneman
and also think of the effect of the depth – wide shallow vs wide deep, etc

Eric Borneman
Yeah, well these rules of thumb are and always have been arbitrary and one has to ask what is the basis for it? Is it to get water movement because of a lack of other water flow devices? Is it couple to various input/output rates of filters/skimmers? It just is too variable by the tank/person to be of much use a a general rule

Adam J
Is there a type of macro that is best at helping to maintain Ph?

Eric Borneman
Chris, I am saying anything that moves a large quantity (mass) of water at a time is good. More small doesn’t do that, although may create currents where they are needed. I am thinking a big giant person lifting the tank pouring out the water and pouring in another tank of water every 6-20 seconds….that kind of thing….obvioulsy not do-able, but to try and get there with whatever means possible….

for me, dumps, surges and wide flow powerheads seem the best we have at this point – and the wavebox

Chris
What is your opinion on running carbon? I’ve read that if you run it all the time it will rob your tank of trace elements

Eric Borneman
Adam, absolutely. A whole slew of them, 40-50 species that are found on 1 square foot of ceramic tile left inthe ocean for a month. They are all turfs…ones that are constantly grazed by fish/inverts. Not hair algae but short turfs…sometimes maxing at 1mm or so barely visible…what your Koles scrape.

They are highly productive very fast growing highly grazed and absolutely eat up nutrients and put off tons of O2 and sequester lots of CO2 often these are almost or are intertidal

Adam J
So an ATS?

Eric Borneman
Well, again limited in tanks. ATS tend to get mainlya couple types of algae often hair algae. Which is more productive than macroalgae but a far cry from what is in the wild. If we could seed those screens with the ideal algal turfs yes.

Adam J
So a lot of the problems associated with ATS could be the types of algae that are being farmed?

Michael
and the dangerous lights 2″ from the screen i havent seen a safe unit yet

Eric Borneman
Chris, I have seen no evidence of a lack of trace elements from carbon use and no ill effects from its use. Now it does take up things we defintiely don’t want in tank and…here is the interesting part…Sanjay Joshi and Randy Donowitz have been testing dissolved carbon….and tanks with activated carbon (skimmed or not) have low DIC. Tanks without activated carbon (skimmed or unskimmed) have high DIC. And unskimmed generally lower than skimmed in DIC. Contrary to what one would think, and he (and we) have been contemplating what this means

I also have issues with lights so close to screens and I am not sure exactly what problems are attributed to ATS. I know the list, but they are all so easily discredited…any in particular you are thinking of? Most of the “issues” come from someone being too dogmatic about methodology. I consider ATS or the equivalent as an adjunct, not a solution

Michael
from what i have read, the water needs to flow properly to be efficient

Eric Borneman
Flow how?

Turfs grow best if they have a water/air interface – like overflow

Adam J
Actually now that I think about it most of the people that have had problems do seem to have a bit of tunnel vision when it comes to using ATS.

Michael
from what ive read only eric, apparently the water movement, especially in home made systems dont allow the algae to grow properly

Eric Borneman
There is evidence that some species can translate mechanical wave action into production so a back and forth dump tray may be better than a static flow if those species are present

Michael
im sure a decent system would be fine

Eric Borneman
but generally they just grow fine if there is nothing grazing them

Michael – man, you should see the photos of some I have – personally and of others. Crazy growth.

Michael
haha, im sure, that would be some good pictures

Eric Borneman
And interestingly the turfs do a much much much better job of trapping (and thus being removed) detritus than skimmers.

This is well known from the wild but I was very surprised to see how it acted the same in tanks

again email me and I’ll send links or photos

Anyone else cause its past lunch time for me!

Michael
are they practical though, ive only seen large untidy units, if someone made a decent tidy looking filter, then they may well improve home reefs

thanks a lot eric for your time

really grateful

Eric Borneman
Yes, there are ways. Sadly, the real attractive units are no longer commercially built. again, email me.

Adam J
Thank you for coming and taking some time with us Eric.

oldsaint
Thank you Eric!!!

Chris
Yes….thanx Eric

Eric Borneman
Thanks to all of you! It was fund! Good luck with the site and be happy to come back anytime!!!

Laters

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